OAL variation with new brass?
Quote from Reloader on May 7, 2020, 4:46 pmI'm a fairly new reloader. I've loaded a large amount of 9mm and 45acp, and I just started loading 10mm last night. I'm running a 650, everything is from Dillon.
So last night, I setup a quick change unit for 10MM, started with some once fired sig brass. Setup my target OAL, and made a first batch of test rounds. I then loaded a few with NEW starline brass, and found the OAL was MUCH longer. Chalked it up to the different headstamps.
I then moved to once fired starline brass, but the OAL turned out to be the same as the once fired sig (roughly)
I know the new starline brass is slightly longer to begin with, and looses some length once it's been fired. Does this cause the OAL to be dramatically longer? Why?
I previously thought the OAL would pretty much stay the same. Isnt it determine by how far the projectile is seated?
Should I be continuing to sort by headstamp, make adjustments to the seat / crimp dies each time i switch, but also do the same for new brass? I've read people saying readjust for different headstamp, but hadn't read about new vs used.
Also, my lyman book said 5.8 was a starting load for a 180gr using w231, whereas my lee said 5.3 starting with 5.8 as max. Every other resource online said 5.8 was MAX. I ended up loading test rounds at 5.4 and 5.6. Should I not trust that book? Or is such variation normal between different resources a normal thing? I was initially going to start at 6.0 when only looking at Lyman, but now I believe that could have been unsafe?
I'm a fairly new reloader. I've loaded a large amount of 9mm and 45acp, and I just started loading 10mm last night. I'm running a 650, everything is from Dillon.
So last night, I setup a quick change unit for 10MM, started with some once fired sig brass. Setup my target OAL, and made a first batch of test rounds. I then loaded a few with NEW starline brass, and found the OAL was MUCH longer. Chalked it up to the different headstamps.
I then moved to once fired starline brass, but the OAL turned out to be the same as the once fired sig (roughly)
I know the new starline brass is slightly longer to begin with, and looses some length once it's been fired. Does this cause the OAL to be dramatically longer? Why?
I previously thought the OAL would pretty much stay the same. Isnt it determine by how far the projectile is seated?
Should I be continuing to sort by headstamp, make adjustments to the seat / crimp dies each time i switch, but also do the same for new brass? I've read people saying readjust for different headstamp, but hadn't read about new vs used.
Also, my lyman book said 5.8 was a starting load for a 180gr using w231, whereas my lee said 5.3 starting with 5.8 as max. Every other resource online said 5.8 was MAX. I ended up loading test rounds at 5.4 and 5.6. Should I not trust that book? Or is such variation normal between different resources a normal thing? I was initially going to start at 6.0 when only looking at Lyman, but now I believe that could have been unsafe?
Quote from Reloader on May 8, 2020, 12:57 amYou've raised a few different issues and I'll offer my thoughts on each. The OAL is really set by the bullet seating die. Presuming the die and the stem are both tight, once the project cartridge is pressed into the die, I don't understand how the OAL could fluctuate. I recommend you check your die, and if my suggestion does not solve your issue, then I recommend a call to Dillon while you are in front of your machine. As you probably surmise, it is a great company with excellent customer support.
In that same vein, I don't sort my semi auto brass, but admittedly I don't load 10mm myself (.380, 9mm, 40S&W and 45ACP). If you ARE finding a variation in brass length, then I would sort the brass by manufacture because the case length will affect bullet seating depth (which affects pressure) and the quality of your taper crimp. As a rule, brass tends not to contract. but increase in length with repeated firings.
I understand your confusion and concern when looking at different reloading books. When I began loading over forty years ago, the number of loading manuals and the number of recipes was significantly less than now. but even then, two different manuals could identify the same amount of powder, with all else being the same, as either a minimum or maximum load. As I have gained experience and talked with fellow reloaders I have formed the opinion that none of the manuals (particularly Lyman) will mislead you into doing something unsafe. One manual may have been written with the ballistician only working the load up to a certain level, and thus calling it a maximum, while others have chosen to take it farther. Because I was a bit intimidated, I always started with the lowest minimum load as a starting point and then worked up. Sure, it meant that I loaded five or ten test rounds with varying powder levels and tested all at the range, but since this activity involved reloading and shooting (two things I dig doing), I didn't mind. As I gained experience, I also made sure to carefully annotate my loading manuals to reflect my experiments and results.
One thing I noticed by the nature of your questions is that you are proceeding VERY CAREFULLY. You are to be congratulated for this and I urge you to continue. Thoughtful analysis and attention to detail will pay dividends as you pursue this new hobby.
Best
Terry
You've raised a few different issues and I'll offer my thoughts on each. The OAL is really set by the bullet seating die. Presuming the die and the stem are both tight, once the project cartridge is pressed into the die, I don't understand how the OAL could fluctuate. I recommend you check your die, and if my suggestion does not solve your issue, then I recommend a call to Dillon while you are in front of your machine. As you probably surmise, it is a great company with excellent customer support.
In that same vein, I don't sort my semi auto brass, but admittedly I don't load 10mm myself (.380, 9mm, 40S&W and 45ACP). If you ARE finding a variation in brass length, then I would sort the brass by manufacture because the case length will affect bullet seating depth (which affects pressure) and the quality of your taper crimp. As a rule, brass tends not to contract. but increase in length with repeated firings.
I understand your confusion and concern when looking at different reloading books. When I began loading over forty years ago, the number of loading manuals and the number of recipes was significantly less than now. but even then, two different manuals could identify the same amount of powder, with all else being the same, as either a minimum or maximum load. As I have gained experience and talked with fellow reloaders I have formed the opinion that none of the manuals (particularly Lyman) will mislead you into doing something unsafe. One manual may have been written with the ballistician only working the load up to a certain level, and thus calling it a maximum, while others have chosen to take it farther. Because I was a bit intimidated, I always started with the lowest minimum load as a starting point and then worked up. Sure, it meant that I loaded five or ten test rounds with varying powder levels and tested all at the range, but since this activity involved reloading and shooting (two things I dig doing), I didn't mind. As I gained experience, I also made sure to carefully annotate my loading manuals to reflect my experiments and results.
One thing I noticed by the nature of your questions is that you are proceeding VERY CAREFULLY. You are to be congratulated for this and I urge you to continue. Thoughtful analysis and attention to detail will pay dividends as you pursue this new hobby.
Best
Terry
Quote from Reloader on May 8, 2020, 3:04 amThank you for the insight. And yes, I'm trying to be as careful as possible.
I only had issues with brand new starline brass. I ended up readjusting, and the used brass consistently (of pretty much all of the head stamps) went to 1.25, whereas the new brass was 1.26. Actually, I aimed for 1.25 with the new brass, and it fluctuated between that at 1.26.
I also had one heck of a difficult time with the powder / bell. The new brass would stick, and would require a LOT of muscle to push the lever forward.
Also, the new brass was from two different packs of starline, from different sources. Same result with all of it.
Considering I had well over 10 stamps consistently seat the different depth, the only conclusion I've come to is that the new brass is simply stiff?
I'll have to shoot some, and reload it, to see if that is the case. As I'd mentioned, any previously fired starline worked smooth as butter.
Also, the brass is indeed a tad bit longer with the new carts. I thought only rifle expands to where it needs trimming? And a lot of pistol actually somehow shrink a bit? Hence, the reason it seems no one trims for 9mm, 45acp, etc. I dont even have a Trimmer, and all of my brass is always a tad bit shorter than spec, whereas this new brass was exactly on point.
Thank you for the insight. And yes, I'm trying to be as careful as possible.
I only had issues with brand new starline brass. I ended up readjusting, and the used brass consistently (of pretty much all of the head stamps) went to 1.25, whereas the new brass was 1.26. Actually, I aimed for 1.25 with the new brass, and it fluctuated between that at 1.26.
I also had one heck of a difficult time with the powder / bell. The new brass would stick, and would require a LOT of muscle to push the lever forward.
Also, the new brass was from two different packs of starline, from different sources. Same result with all of it.
Considering I had well over 10 stamps consistently seat the different depth, the only conclusion I've come to is that the new brass is simply stiff?
I'll have to shoot some, and reload it, to see if that is the case. As I'd mentioned, any previously fired starline worked smooth as butter.
Also, the brass is indeed a tad bit longer with the new carts. I thought only rifle expands to where it needs trimming? And a lot of pistol actually somehow shrink a bit? Hence, the reason it seems no one trims for 9mm, 45acp, etc. I dont even have a Trimmer, and all of my brass is always a tad bit shorter than spec, whereas this new brass was exactly on point.
Quote from Reloader on May 8, 2020, 3:13 amCorrection, I aimed for 1.255 with the new starline, and left everything set as is for the rest. Measured each round (of about 450, once my buddy decided he wanted them all at 5.4gr w231).
Theres almost a 0.01 inconsistency between the new and used brass.
Loaded 200 new, and the rest was used.
Correction, I aimed for 1.255 with the new starline, and left everything set as is for the rest. Measured each round (of about 450, once my buddy decided he wanted them all at 5.4gr w231).
Theres almost a 0.01 inconsistency between the new and used brass.
Loaded 200 new, and the rest was used.
Quote from Reloader on May 10, 2020, 12:56 amGreat analysis. As I read your report it occurs to me that you have a situation similar to one I experienced with a particular brand of 44 Colt that I purchased from the local branch of a big box outdoor store. Briefly, 45 Colt is pretty easy to reload but I seemed to have encountered issue after issue with one (and only one) brand of brass. I fumed for a while then came to the conclusion that life is just way too short to worry about this one component. Thankfully, my reloading buddy, who utilizes different equipment really liked it so we swapped and I got brass with a headstamp he didn't care for.
I rarely sort by headstamp except to look for what I consider problem brass, like I described, or when loading a caliber where I encounter brass with crimped in primer or in the case of 45 acp because now you'll run into brass with large primers (the vast majority) or small primers (the lead free stuff). My reloading buddy that I mentioned, sorts all of his brass.
I try to avoid problems if possible because I tend to reload because I enjoy the activity, I save some bucks doing it and it spurs me to get out and shoot more than I other wise would.
Good luck to you.Terry
Great analysis. As I read your report it occurs to me that you have a situation similar to one I experienced with a particular brand of 44 Colt that I purchased from the local branch of a big box outdoor store. Briefly, 45 Colt is pretty easy to reload but I seemed to have encountered issue after issue with one (and only one) brand of brass. I fumed for a while then came to the conclusion that life is just way too short to worry about this one component. Thankfully, my reloading buddy, who utilizes different equipment really liked it so we swapped and I got brass with a headstamp he didn't care for.
I rarely sort by headstamp except to look for what I consider problem brass, like I described, or when loading a caliber where I encounter brass with crimped in primer or in the case of 45 acp because now you'll run into brass with large primers (the vast majority) or small primers (the lead free stuff). My reloading buddy that I mentioned, sorts all of his brass.
I try to avoid problems if possible because I tend to reload because I enjoy the activity, I save some bucks doing it and it spurs me to get out and shoot more than I other wise would.
Good luck to you.
Terry