Shellplate skipping
Quote from Reloader on November 15, 2010, 1:15 amJust did a caliber conversion (from 45 ACP to 9mm, which I've done many times before), and noticed a problem I haven't previously experienced. The shellplate is "skipping", by which I mean that when I crank the handle the shellplate sometimes rotates as normal with each stroke--but sometimes it doesn't rotate with the stroke. Seems to rotate 2-3 times, then gets stuck. I can rotate it easily by hand, but it seems as if the pawl under neath the shellplate is not catching the holes for that purpose on the underside of the shellplate. The shellplate bolt is correctly tightened (right up to the point where the shellplate resists rotation).
I should mention that I did just change the ring indexer, as the portrusion that holds the index return spring has broken. The new ring indexer, from my spare parts kit, was a different color than the old one (kind of grey, instead of the old black). I also replaced the index return spring. The ring indexer seems to function normally.
In trying to fix the problem I have also replaced the index pawl and pawl spring, again from my spare parts kit, but the symptoms are the same.
Thoughts?
Just did a caliber conversion (from 45 ACP to 9mm, which I've done many times before), and noticed a problem I haven't previously experienced. The shellplate is "skipping", by which I mean that when I crank the handle the shellplate sometimes rotates as normal with each stroke--but sometimes it doesn't rotate with the stroke. Seems to rotate 2-3 times, then gets stuck. I can rotate it easily by hand, but it seems as if the pawl under neath the shellplate is not catching the holes for that purpose on the underside of the shellplate. The shellplate bolt is correctly tightened (right up to the point where the shellplate resists rotation).
I should mention that I did just change the ring indexer, as the portrusion that holds the index return spring has broken. The new ring indexer, from my spare parts kit, was a different color than the old one (kind of grey, instead of the old black). I also replaced the index return spring. The ring indexer seems to function normally.
In trying to fix the problem I have also replaced the index pawl and pawl spring, again from my spare parts kit, but the symptoms are the same.
Thoughts?
Quote from Reloader on November 15, 2010, 2:48 pmWhen you replaced the ring indexer, did you grease the inside of it? It sounds like the spring isn't always retracting the ring .
When you replaced the ring indexer, did you grease the inside of it? It sounds like the spring isn't always retracting the ring .
Quote from Reloader on November 15, 2010, 4:23 pmI didn't grease the inside of the ring indexer (I'll do that now), but I don't think that's the problem. If I raise the press halfway, I can work the ring indexer by hand. It reliably snaps back into place, drawn by the spring, but when I manually rotate it, it sometimes fails to "catch" the shell plate--at least half the time. Works 2-3 times, then starts skipping (not rotating the shell plate).
I didn't grease the inside of the ring indexer (I'll do that now), but I don't think that's the problem. If I raise the press halfway, I can work the ring indexer by hand. It reliably snaps back into place, drawn by the spring, but when I manually rotate it, it sometimes fails to "catch" the shell plate--at least half the time. Works 2-3 times, then starts skipping (not rotating the shell plate).
Quote from Reloader on November 15, 2010, 7:22 pmUpdate: I went ahead and greased the inside of the indexer ring--in the process of doing this (and having the platform, etc. all off the press) that it might be worth checking the alignment using the tool for this purpose. I'd never used the tool during a 45ACP/9mm caliber conversion before, but since I'd recently acquired the tool I thought I'd try it.
Sure it enough, misalignment seems to have been the issue. I dropped the alignment tool into the powder measure (interestingly, it didn't go all the way down to the primer punch opening, but hovered just above it--close enough, I figured, and the misalignment was pretty obvious). I wiggled the loosely bolted on platform until I had pretty good alignment between the tool and primer punch opening, then tightened it down. Of course, then I found it very difficult to get the shellplate bolt to go in, so I loosened up the platform again, screwed the shellplate bolt in a bit (without the shell plate, of course, which would have blocked access to the platform bolts), realigned using the tool, and tightened down the platform. After that I put the shell plate back on, and function checked for auto-advance both when manually moving the ring indexer (press at half-way position) and when cycling the press normally.
The advance now seemed to work consistently, but I did now find that I had some resistance near the top of the return stroke, and isolated it to something wrong with the ring indexer--it was advancing the shellplate, but hit some kind of resistance about the last half or third of shellplate rotation. I had lubed the inside of the ring indexer, and also put a dab of grease where the angled part of the indexer engaged with the indexer block, but still had that feel of resistance at that last part of the indexer ring rotation.
In an effort to address this new issue, I took off the platform again--but forgot to remove the indexer ring spring before doing so, with the result that I broke the attachment point for the spring off the indexer ring. As this was already my spare, I'll have to wait until I get a replacement from Dillon (already requested) before I can move forward.
So, two questions--what might be causing this last bit of resistance of the indexer ring? Could it still be imperfect alignment? Also, should the alignment tool actually fit into the opening for the primer punch (punch removed), and if so how do I get it to go low enough, just crank the powder die lower (hate to do that, as I'll have to reset the powder die again to get the correct case belling)?
Thanks!
Update: I went ahead and greased the inside of the indexer ring--in the process of doing this (and having the platform, etc. all off the press) that it might be worth checking the alignment using the tool for this purpose. I'd never used the tool during a 45ACP/9mm caliber conversion before, but since I'd recently acquired the tool I thought I'd try it.
Sure it enough, misalignment seems to have been the issue. I dropped the alignment tool into the powder measure (interestingly, it didn't go all the way down to the primer punch opening, but hovered just above it--close enough, I figured, and the misalignment was pretty obvious). I wiggled the loosely bolted on platform until I had pretty good alignment between the tool and primer punch opening, then tightened it down. Of course, then I found it very difficult to get the shellplate bolt to go in, so I loosened up the platform again, screwed the shellplate bolt in a bit (without the shell plate, of course, which would have blocked access to the platform bolts), realigned using the tool, and tightened down the platform. After that I put the shell plate back on, and function checked for auto-advance both when manually moving the ring indexer (press at half-way position) and when cycling the press normally.
The advance now seemed to work consistently, but I did now find that I had some resistance near the top of the return stroke, and isolated it to something wrong with the ring indexer--it was advancing the shellplate, but hit some kind of resistance about the last half or third of shellplate rotation. I had lubed the inside of the ring indexer, and also put a dab of grease where the angled part of the indexer engaged with the indexer block, but still had that feel of resistance at that last part of the indexer ring rotation.
In an effort to address this new issue, I took off the platform again--but forgot to remove the indexer ring spring before doing so, with the result that I broke the attachment point for the spring off the indexer ring. As this was already my spare, I'll have to wait until I get a replacement from Dillon (already requested) before I can move forward.
So, two questions--what might be causing this last bit of resistance of the indexer ring? Could it still be imperfect alignment? Also, should the alignment tool actually fit into the opening for the primer punch (punch removed), and if so how do I get it to go low enough, just crank the powder die lower (hate to do that, as I'll have to reset the powder die again to get the correct case belling)?
Thanks!
Quote from Reloader on November 16, 2010, 4:16 pmIt sounds like misalignment is indeed the culprit. As for the alignment tool, it only goes into the primer bushing hole maybe a thread or thread and one-half is all. As long as the tip is in the hole, tighten the two platform bolts.
It sounds like misalignment is indeed the culprit. As for the alignment tool, it only goes into the primer bushing hole maybe a thread or thread and one-half is all. As long as the tip is in the hole, tighten the two platform bolts.
Quote from Reloader on November 18, 2010, 12:42 amUpdate:
Well, I received the alignment tool--with instructions, this time 🙂 -- and a new ring indexer and spring (actually, in apparent recognition of my clumsiness, they sent TWO of each--thanks Dillon!), I put the press back together today. The alignment tool was essential--and, it turns out it's a great help in using the alignment tool to have a spare die head and powder die (which it turned out I did in the odds-and-ends box).
With the alignment tool I quickly found that simply tightening down the platform resulted in very poor alignment. With the tool, and proper instructions, it was easy as pie to get proper alignment of the platform. Hopefully, that will fix the occasional problem I had with flipped primers.
Unfortunately, achieving proper alignment did nothing for the problem of the shell plate not rotating. After taking everything apart and putting it back together several times, I finally noticed that it appeared that the index ring was not fully returning to it's "rest" condition. If I paused on the upstroke, I was able to manually move the index ring just a bit further to the right, at which point it would click into the appropriate round spot on the underside of the shell plate.
Closer examination of portion of the index ring that slides back and forth in the platform showed that the edge furthest to the right and closest to the center of the press (the "upper right" corner of the portion that the pawl fits into) had a squared corner that was conflicting with the rounded end of the slot in the platform. I took everything apart again, and took a file lightly to that corner of the index ring, rounding it out slightly.
Success! When I put everything back together this time (yes, another alignment), the shell plate advanced properly every time.
I don't know if this is because I have an old XL650 (purchased around 1994) and the index ring is a new version, but rounding off that little corner with the file did the trick.
Hope this can be of use to someone else one of these days.
Update:
Well, I received the alignment tool--with instructions, this time 🙂 -- and a new ring indexer and spring (actually, in apparent recognition of my clumsiness, they sent TWO of each--thanks Dillon!), I put the press back together today. The alignment tool was essential--and, it turns out it's a great help in using the alignment tool to have a spare die head and powder die (which it turned out I did in the odds-and-ends box).
With the alignment tool I quickly found that simply tightening down the platform resulted in very poor alignment. With the tool, and proper instructions, it was easy as pie to get proper alignment of the platform. Hopefully, that will fix the occasional problem I had with flipped primers.
Unfortunately, achieving proper alignment did nothing for the problem of the shell plate not rotating. After taking everything apart and putting it back together several times, I finally noticed that it appeared that the index ring was not fully returning to it's "rest" condition. If I paused on the upstroke, I was able to manually move the index ring just a bit further to the right, at which point it would click into the appropriate round spot on the underside of the shell plate.
Closer examination of portion of the index ring that slides back and forth in the platform showed that the edge furthest to the right and closest to the center of the press (the "upper right" corner of the portion that the pawl fits into) had a squared corner that was conflicting with the rounded end of the slot in the platform. I took everything apart again, and took a file lightly to that corner of the index ring, rounding it out slightly.
Success! When I put everything back together this time (yes, another alignment), the shell plate advanced properly every time.
I don't know if this is because I have an old XL650 (purchased around 1994) and the index ring is a new version, but rounding off that little corner with the file did the trick.
Hope this can be of use to someone else one of these days.